Khaled Abu-Aker: Where do we stand today as Palestinians on the
issue of regional cooperation? There has been a lot of talk about
it, but so far nothing has happened on the ground. Is this due to
the political situation?
Nabil Sha'ath: The Israelis talk about regional trade, but actually
they want to impose heavy restrictions on us to prevent us from
doing any regional trade, while using the slogan of regionalism in
order to use us as a bridge for Israeli products to gain access to
the Arab world. The Arab countries are not accepting this and,
therefore, there is no progress in any of the regional projects
relating to trade.
The border between Egypt and us is a very good example. The
Israelis will not allow more than 10-15 trucks a day to pass from
Egypt. They encourage the Egyptians to go to the Israeli rather
than to the Palestinian border to collect custom duties. Armed by
the Paris Protocol, they can permit what they want and stop what
they want. They have really been blocking any attempt to implement
the Paris Accords, misusing them by imposing arrangements under the
pretext of security, thus, in effect, barring trade between Egypt
and us.
The situation is not very much better with Jordan. Because the
trucks are strip-searched on the Jordanian-Israeli border, about 25
trucks a day pass from Jordan. They want now to allow Jordan to
trade with the Palestinians via an agreement with Israel, without
reciprocity for the Palestinian side. We want reciprocal trade and
reciprocal truck movement between the Jordanian side and us. So you
see, the Israelis are doing everything possible to prevent us from
having regional trade.
Tunisia has relations with Israel on a very small scale, but has
normalized its economic relations with Israel. Israeli tourists go
to Tunisia and vice versa. There is a Tunisian office in Tel Aviv
and an Israeli office in Tunis, but, to this day, Israel will not
allow the Palestinians to import Tunisian products because, they
claim, Tunisia is an enemy country. It is ridiculous!
We can say that without political progress we cannot witness any
regional cooperation.
It is not related, but I am coming to the political side later. The
problems could be solved without using politics. Were Israel to
decide today that it would allow the Palestinians to trade with
Egypt and Jordan and cast off this charade of security as a pretext
to prevent trade, were it to allow us to go forward and establish
regional trade links even without serious political change - then
they could create much better conditions for overall regional
trade. Israel is not interested in regional trade. The Israelis
don't want us to be participants in regional trade, using the
misapplication of the Paris Protocol and their attempts to close
our borders under the pretext of security. This is not political.
This is sheer greed. The Israelis talk about regional trade, but
they practice regional isolation. You have to add to that the
political situation, which I think is a different matter.
So what the Israelis are looking for actually is cooperation
with the countries in the region but without the
Palestinians.
Absolutely. They want to use us as an excuse, as a bridge to reach
some regional cooperation with our neighbors, without our
involvement. This is not a political issue. This is sheer economic
selfishness. They think they can keep our market under their
hegemony, under their monopoly. They sell us rubbish products that
they cannot sell anywhere else in the world, or products that cost
3-4 times as much as they cost in the international market, such as
dairy products. At the same time, they want to use the pretext of
regional trade to by-pass us so as to forge new markets for
themselves in the Arab world.
And here comes the political factor. The Arab world is not ready to
see Israel violate all conditions of regionalism with the
Palestinians, and violate all political commitments to link a
political solution to regionalism, in order to achieve regional
cooperation with the Arab world. The Arab world is not ready to do
that, and for good reason. Because of Israel's economic and
political behavior, the Arab world has gradually boycotted all fora
in which there could have been a discussion of regionalism, such as
the multilateral negotiations on economic and other issues. The
same applied to other attempts made in particular during the Peres
days, with his "New Middle East" vision - all of these have died
politically. This was due to the insistence of the Arab world that
they were not going to go into full normalization with Israel,
including economic normalization and regionalism, until Israel
implements its commitments to the peace process, liberating
Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian land. Therefore, the political
factor explains why the Arab world is not forthcoming. But it is
the Israeli behavior that explains why they are not succeeding in
persuading us that they are really interested in regionalism and
free trade.
This is also true of what they are doing vis-à-vis our trade
with Europe. We have a full interim association agreement with
Europe and the Israelis say they do not recognize it and, as a
result, they are blocking our trade with Europe, impeding any
progress in our economic relations with them. Add to that the
difficulties Israel places on imports from donor countries and from
other channels, all the difficulties they place in our way of
implementing projects that require land in the areas they still
occupy, and you can understand why when people now talk to us about
regionalism we are cynical.
So all conferences related to regional cooperation attempts to
create an atmosphere conducive to such cooperation are
useless?
Yes, until two things happen: Israel completes the peace process
and Israel willingly treats the Palestinians as equals and ends the
blockages that it has imposed on free trade between us and our
neighbors. Israel must show that it is interested in free trade and
regionalism for all the parties in the area. It must allow
Tunisians and Moroccans to sell us products, free the entries and
exits to Jordan and Egypt, allow us freedom of action on the level
of the whole region, start seriously to look at regional projects
as something that benefits all the parties, not only Israel. Israel
must not only complete the peace process; it has to change its
attitude to the region dramatically.
Will the atmosphere then be conducive to regional cooperation?
What of fears among many thinkers, even politicians in the Arab
world, that regional cooperation means the domination of the
economy by Israel?
To have or not to have regional projects should be the independent
decision of every Arab country, based on a calculation of its own
interests and the Arab interests. I do not think that any Arab
country can be pushed into regional cooperation with Israel unless
it is really in its own interest, politically and economically. If
the Israelis think they are going to have a free ride - do
something that benefits them only - it won't work.
I do not really think there is a reason for excessive fear of
Israeli domination for several reasons: The Israeli economy after a
long period of boycott by the Arab countries is not geared to trade
with those countries, but with those that allowed Israel to trade
with a preferential system, like Europe, the USA, Japan and Hong
Kong. Israel's trade avenues have basically to do with polished
diamonds, still the highest item of export and now, of course,
hi-tech. Hi-tech is related to the Europeans and its markets and
very little to the Arab markets. Israel does not produce desktop
computers; it produces sophisticated software in the military and
other highly technical fields in which the Arab countries have not
really developed. So, the Israeli trade was directed basically by
history, and is now directed by design and by the development of
the Israeli productive system, to the European and American
markets. I see very little reason for changing that and orienting
toward the Arab countries. Neither is Israel capable of competing
with the East Asian products in consumer durables, or with Europe
and the USA in automobiles and consumer goods of a higher
quality.
The Arab world is definitely not going to give preference to Israel
over its usual trade partners. Israel's ability to compete in the
Arab world is very limited and it will require a major change in
the direction of its economy and trade and I do not think the
Israelis are interested in that. They are interested in the global
market in Europe, the USA and Japan. If Israel is really going to
have any influence in the Arab markets, it will be as an agent of
American and European companies in mega-projects like major water
projects, and that was the dream of Shimon Peres. The Arab
countries should be wise enough, sophisticated enough not to be
interested. They do not need it. They are not infant economies that
need the guidance of the Israeli entrepreneur in carrying out
projects with the Americans. They can implement the projects
directly.
Why then is Israel interested in regional projects with the Arab
markets? For totally different reasons: a. water, b. energy and
gas, and c. major infrastructural projects, such as roads that open
the arteries of tourism and human interaction between Israel and
the area around it. Water: Water can only come if the Israelis improve their
relations significantly with Egypt and Syria - Syria to allow
Turkish water to come through, and Israel still dreams of getting
water from the Nile. Energy: Most of the Israeli power stations are now fuelled
by coal from Australia and South Africa and they have become very
old. The Israelis have to shift their power stations to natural
gas. They have discovered some natural gas (by the way, most of it
is ours on the border with Gaza). This is not enough. They are
thinking of the Egyptian natural gas carrier and, in the future,
the Qatari contract that never worked out (the $7-billion contract
that Shimon Peres signed with the Qatari foreign minister in Amman
just before the assassination of Yizhak Rabin). So thinking more of
water and energy, the Israelis want to join the electricity grid
that will start from Egypt. They want to buy electricity and gas -
gas to fuel their own stations, and electricity as a stand-by they
can utilize, especially when they are not able to cope with all the
requirements of energy. They also want to become partners in the
big refinery in Alexandria. So they also hope to get more crude oil
directly for their economy as they grow faster, and become more
energy thirsty.
Therefore, refined gas, natural gas, electricity, water, these are
the major requirements of Israel from the Arab world and not the
consumer markets or even the producer markets the Arab economists
or political writers are afraid of. The Arab world's fear of
Israeli domination is totally imaginary. It is not based on any
real study of the Israeli economy.
The future of regionalism should not be based on false fears, but
on equality, mutuality and proper calculation of interest. If, in
the future, once peace is fully achieved, the Arab countries find
it in their interest to sell gas and electricity to Israel, they
must do it in a way that is also in our interest. In that case, we
would like to see natural gas and electricity come through the
Palestinian territories and with our transportation system. Then we
would not be dependent only on Israeli sources; we would become an
important route on which Israel would depend for its gas and water.
Such mutual and balanced relations will then be based on the
interests of both parties. In that case, we will explore our needs
from Israel.
Are we going to benefit from any regional projects as
Palestinians?
We should and we have been studying this for a long time. Once
Israel opens up and treats us as equals and as independent
operators who have their own self-interest and their own choices of
trade, Israel then might have wider trade relations with us (but
not in the Tnuva milk and the rubbish orange drinks that flood our
markets or the other products they impose on us because they cannot
sell them anywhere). No, regional projects will deal with hi-tech,
tourism, and environment protection. There will be many ways in
which we and Israel, and possibly some of the Arab countries around
us, will benefit from regionalism and interdependence rather than
dependence and hegemony. In that case, the direction of trade will
change so that Israel will gradually get out of those industries
and products in which it is not competitive and gradually move into
those products in which there is joint competitiveness. The Arab
world and, particularly, the Palestinians have a lot of highly
talented manpower in hi-tech and we might be equally interested in
some joint projects.
But as equals. Take for example the present state of tourism in
Jerusalem and Bethlehem. The Israelis take all the tourists to
their airports and force upon them their tour buses; they put them
in their own hotels, they feed them in their restaurants - the only
thing we get are tourists coming in Israeli buses, with Israeli
tour guides; they see the sights; go to our toilets and buy
postcards. This is ridiculous. If Israel thinks this is
regionalism, we don't want it.
Mr. Peres tried to show a bright future for the Middle East. He
has his own vision for the Middle East. I noticed you were critical
of his vision. Do you think he has overly high
expectations?
I am not criticizing. He is in his own right to propose a vision of
peace, which I appreciate. The man is creative, forward-looking,
and he found in the Middle East a raison d'être for a new
foreign policy for Israel, which he championed. He thought of
mega-projects: the Red-Med and the Med-Dead and the Red-Dead
canals. His dreams went very high. I don't blame him, but I think
the Arabs have to read him with a lot of grains of salt.
Before you dream all these dreams, you have to carry out the simple
task of withdrawing from our country. Take your security people
from the borders. I went to the Egyptian and Jordanian borders and
asked the hablan mishtara (the demolition experts they put on the
borders), "Why are you taking two hours to check every truck?" He
answered, "To save the lives of Israelis." I said, "Fine, this is a
noble objective, but how many bombs have you found in the last
week?" "Last week, none really." I said, "Last month, or last year,
or even the last six years? How many bombs have you found on the
trucks?" He said, "None." So it is a distortion. The whole security
issue on the borders, particularly of Egypt and Jordan, countries
with which Israel has peace, is really an excuse for which Mr.
Peres was responsible. During his time in office things became
worse, not better. One should say to Mr. Peres, "Fine, your dreams
are legitimate, but don't let them become a substitute for
reality." Mr. Peres should come down from his grand designs and let
us work together on realistic plans - to get real economic
cooperation and real economic freedom of trade, in the interest of
all. Israeli occupation and economic cooperation can't live
together.
Do you see the possibility of having real cooperation in spite
of doubts on the part of Palestinians regarding the possibility of
a solution to the complicated issues?
Why shouldn't this happen in the future if the necessary conditions
are fulfilled: if there is a peace process after which Israel will
behave differently; if the Palestinians have all their country
freed like Lebanon was, and if the Syrian track is followed
through; if we solve the refugee problem by implementing the right
of return coupled with compensation; and if that leads to a
comprehensive peace in the area? Economic regionalism has a very
valuable potential to all the parties.
They are anxious for industrial parks.
These did not work. We established industrial parks and we thought
the Israelis would come rushing, in order to put up factories. They
didn't, because the Israelis are maintaining the same restrictions,
refusing to recognize us as an independent entity in issuing
certificates of origin. They do not want to recognize our
association agreement with Europe.
Our dependence on Israeli imports is being reduced, and we are
fleeing from the Israeli economic jail where they impose trade on
us and restrict our movement. Whatever cooperation is going on
today is based upon Israeli domination of the market and total
closure of our borders with the rest of the world, upon Israeli
occupation and control of our borders. When we become free, all of
us will have to think totally differently - a totally different
image, based on independence and interdependence in which we and
the Israelis choose those areas of cooperation that are of mutual
benefit.
But, today, there is no place for talking about issues related
to the multilateral talks. Were the Syrians then right when they
decided to boycott the multilateral talks? And Lebanon?
The question is not right or wrong. All of these factors can be
elements of pressure on the Israelis, and it is legitimate to make
use of every pressure in order to get the Israelis to give us back
our rights. In a situation in which there is no major military
confrontation, political propaganda and economic pressure are the
tools of the game. Otherwise, the only fact controlling the game is
Israeli military occupation and preponderance of power. As against
that there are other pressures in the region and one of these is
the ability to withhold from Israel economic benefits until it
complies with its political obligations.
Can integration into the region be achieved, or will the
economic and cultural gaps block it?
The word integration is a very big word and the Arabs have not been
able to integrate among themselves. For Israel, Turkey, Iran, etc.,
to integrate into a broader Middle East is even more difficult. Let
us talk about joint projects, regional cooperation and regional
trade before we talk about full integration.
What are the main projects you believe we are really in need of
in order to help us politically and economically as Palestinians on
the regional level?
All the projects have failed on the rocks of Israeli impediments to
our freedom of movement. We cannot talk about regionalism if our
people cannot move freely. How can you have regional projects if a
businessman from Cairo cannot drive his car and come to Gaza? I
think we should totally forget the dreams of any regional
improvement until the political process achieves its results. Five
years ago, we thought it may be possible to do a little in the
existing political environment, but it did not work, basically
because of Israeli policies. The political environment was more
flexible than Israeli security and economic measures. But that is
finished now. We are close to the termination of our peace process.
There is no sense today in moving on the economic front before
concluding, in the next three to four months, the peace process
between Israel and us and between Syria and Israel. When that is
concluded, I think we will have a new territory for thinking, for
working and for doing.
Finally, what is Dr. Nabil Sha'ath's vision regarding the whole
issue?
The future vision I think includes three areas in which Palestine
has a very specific advantage in working closely with Israel and
the Arab countries around us, particularly Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon
and maybe Syria:
1. Joint ventures in the area of high technology, with world
exports being the objective. It suits both our high-level manpower
structure and the needs of international markets;
2. Tourism;
3. Cooperation in issues of water and energy and in their
environmental components, on a fair and equal basis for the benefit
of all of us.
But all of this will have to await the conclusion of the peace
process before having any chance of success.